Legislature(2009 - 2010)HOUSE FINANCE 519

03/11/2010 03:00 PM House ENERGY


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03:19:39 PM Start
03:19:56 PM Overviews on Comparative Railbelt Energy Project Analysis
06:58:28 PM Adjourn
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
-- Location Change from Room 124 --
+ Overviews on Comparative Railbelt Energy TELECONFERENCED
Project Analysis:
Railbelt Integrated Resource Plan, by
Alaska Energy Authority;
Susitna Hydro Project, by Alaska Energy
Authority;
Mount Spurr Geothermal Project, by Ormat;
In-State Natural Gas Pipeline, by Bob
Swenson, In-State Natural Gas Pipeline
Coordinator, CIRI;
Chakachamna Hydro Project, by TDX Power;
Coal Gasification and Fire Island Wind
Farm Projects, by CIRI
+ Bills Previously Heard/Scheduled TELECONFERENCED
                    ALASKA STATE LEGISLATURE                                                                                  
               HOUSE SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON ENERGY                                                                              
                         March 11, 2010                                                                                         
                           3:19 p.m.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MEMBERS PRESENT                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Representative Bryce Edgmon, Co-Chair                                                                                           
Representative Charisse Millett, Co-Chair                                                                                       
Representative Nancy Dahlstrom                                                                                                  
Representative Kyle Johansen                                                                                                    
Representative Jay Ramras                                                                                                       
Representative Pete Petersen                                                                                                    
Representative Chris Tuck                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MEMBERS ABSENT                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                              
OTHER LEGISLATORS PRESENT                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                              
Representative Carl Gatto                                                                                                       
Representative Craig Johnson                                                                                                    
Representative Bob Herron                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
COMMITTEE CALENDAR                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
OVERVIEWS ON COMPARATIVE RAILBELT ENERGY PROJECT ANALYSIS                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
     - HEARD                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
PREVIOUS COMMITTEE ACTION                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
No previous action to record                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
WITNESS REGISTER                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
JIM STRANDBERG, Project Manager                                                                                                 
Alaska Energy Authority (AEA)                                                                                                   
Department of Commerce, Community, & Economic Development                                                                       
(DCCED)                                                                                                                         
Anchorage, Alaska                                                                                                               
POSITION STATEMENT:   Discussed  the Railbelt Integrated  Resource                                                            
Plan  (RIRP)   project,  along  with  a   PowerPoint  presentation                                                              
titled,  "A Comprehensive  Plan for  the Alaska  Railbelt; gave  a                                                              
PowerPoint presentation titled, "Susitna Hydroelectric Project."                                                                
                                                                                                                                
KEVIN HARPER, Project Manager                                                                                                   
Black & Veatch                                                                                                                  
Issaquah, Washington                                                                                                            
POSITION STATEMENT:   Participated in the  PowerPoint presentation                                                            
titled, "A Comprehensive Plan for the Alaska Railbelt."                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
BOB BUTERA, Civil Engineer                                                                                                      
HDR Alaska                                                                                                                      
Anchorage, Alaska                                                                                                               
POSITION  STATEMENT:     Assisted  in  the   presentation  titled,                                                            
"Susitna Hydroelectric Project."                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
ERIC YOULD, Program Director                                                                                                    
Chakachamna Hydropower Project                                                                                                  
TDX Power, Inc.                                                                                                                 
Anchorage, Alaska                                                                                                               
POSITION  STATEMENT:    Gave  a  PowerPoint  presentation  titled,                                                            
"Chakachamna Status Report."                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
BOB SWENSON, Project Manager                                                                                                    
Alaska In-State Gas Pipeline Project                                                                                            
Department of Natural Resources (DNR)                                                                                           
Anchorage, Alaska                                                                                                               
POSITION STATEMENT:  Gave a  PowerPoint presentation  titled, "In-                                                            
State Gas Pipeline Project Update."                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
ETHAN SCHUTT, Vice President                                                                                                    
Land and Energy                                                                                                                 
Cook Inlet Region Inc. (CIRI)                                                                                                   
Anchorage, Alaska                                                                                                               
POSITION  STATEMENT:    Gave  PowerPoint   presentations  on  Fire                                                            
Island Wind and Underground Coal Gasification projects.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
PAUL THOMSEN, Director                                                                                                          
Policy & Business Development                                                                                                   
Ormat Technologies, Inc. (Ormat)                                                                                                
Reno, Nevada                                                                                                                    
POSITION STATEMENT:   Gave a PowerPoint presentation  titled, "The                                                            
Mount Spurr Geothermal Project."                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
ACTION NARRATIVE                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
3:19:39 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR CHARISSE  MILLETT called  the House Special  Committee on                                                            
Energy  meeting to  order at  3:19 p.m.   Present  at the call  to                                                              
order were  Representatives Millett, Edgmon,  Dahlstrom, Petersen,                                                              
and  Johansen.   Representatives Ramras  and Tuck  arrived as  the                                                              
meeting   was   in   progress.       Also   in   attendance   were                                                              
Representatives Gatto, Johnson, and Herron.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
3:19:56 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
^Overviews On Comparative Railbelt Energy Project Analysis                                                                      
   Overviews On Comparative Railbelt Energy Project Analysis                                                                
                                                                                                                              
3:19:58 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR MILLETT  announced that the only order  of business would                                                              
be  overviews on  comparative  Railbelt energy  project  analyses.                                                              
The   20-minute  overviews   also  include   responses  to   seven                                                              
questions  that  were  posed  by  the committee  to  each  of  the                                                              
invited participants.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
3:21:21 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
JIM STRANDBERG,  Project Manager,  Alaska Energy Authority  (AEA),                                                              
Department   of  Commerce,  Community,   &  Economic   Development                                                              
(DCCED),  noted  that  the  state  sponsored  integrated  planning                                                              
process came  about through  the efforts  of Representative  Craig                                                              
Johnson and Senator  Joe Thomas; in fact, $1  million was directed                                                              
to this study,  and $1.5 million  was directed to analysis  of the                                                              
Susitna Hydroelectric  (hydro) project.   Railbelt utilities  also                                                              
contributed to  the completion of the  plan.  The goal  of AEA was                                                              
to create  a plan useful  within the  Greater Railbelt  Energy and                                                              
Transmission  Corporation (GRETC)  concept, and  supported by  the                                                              
Railbelt utilities.   Mr. Strandberg explained that  an integrated                                                              
resource  plan  [for  energy]  is "a  grouping  of  defined  power                                                              
generation  and  transmission  line  projects arrayed  on  a  time                                                              
schedule  for development  that  will allow  for leased,  long-run                                                              
costs of  wholesale power  at acceptable  levels of  reliability."                                                              
The  analysis also  included fuel  supply portfolios,  as well  as                                                              
transmission  analysis.   Mr. Strandberg  concluded that  the role                                                              
the  Railbelt  Integrated  Resource   Plan  (RIRP)  plays  in  the                                                              
creation  of  GRETC is  to  define  what  energy projects,  on  an                                                              
economic  evaluation  process,   should  be  constructed  for  the                                                              
future  of the  Railbelt.    He presented  slide  2  and said  the                                                              
Railbelt  Electrical   Grid  Authority   (REGA)  was   a  business                                                              
structure  analysis  funded by  the  legislature  that formed  the                                                              
business  model for  GRETC, thus  the major  components for  GRETC                                                              
were  the REGA  study of  business  structure, and  the RIRP  that                                                              
identified actions and projects.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
3:27:15 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
KEVIN  HARPER, Project  Manager,  Black  & Veatch,  clarified  the                                                              
following  four points  regarding  the plan:    (1) an  integrated                                                              
resource plan  is not a  state energy plan;  (2) it is  a document                                                              
that identifies  the direction  "the region  ought to  go," albeit                                                              
not at  a level of detail,  such as the  site for a  wind project;                                                              
(3) any  integrated resource  plan (IRP)  should be updated  every                                                              
three  to  five  years,  especially  as  uncertainties  and  risks                                                              
influence the results  of the report; (4) there  are four specific                                                              
scenarios,  1A, 1B, 2A,  and 2B.   He  further explained  that the                                                              
designation  of "A"  indicated "least-cost,"  and the  designation                                                              
"B"  indicated  "forced  ...  renewables,"   and  thus  determines                                                              
whether there  is incremental cost  associated with  achieving the                                                              
target of  50 percent renewables  by 2025.  Further,  scenario "1"                                                              
assumes today's load  and some growth, and scenario  "2" assumes a                                                              
load  increase  of 50  percent  by 2025,  and  an  increase of  an                                                              
additional 50 percent by the year 2040.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
3:31:29 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. HARPER  advised that  one issue with  energy for  the Railbelt                                                              
is its size;  in fact, the  Railbelt is too small  to economically                                                              
justify  many of the  proposed projects.   He  presented slide  3,                                                              
Scenario 1A/1B,  that illustrated the energy output  by technology                                                              
[source] over a  50-year period.  Mr. Harper pointed  out that the                                                              
resource plans  for scenarios 1A  and 1B are the  same, therefore,                                                              
based  upon   today's  load   with  some   growth,  there   is  no                                                              
incremental  cost  associated  with  reaching  the  target  of  50                                                              
percent renewables  by 2025.   In fact,  63 percent of  the energy                                                              
generation  is  by  renewables   by  2025.    This  percentage  is                                                              
achieved by the  increase in hydro generation.   Conversely, there                                                              
is  a corresponding  reduction in  the use  of natural  gas.   Mr.                                                              
Harper  stressed  that  the  least   cost  path  is  dependent  on                                                              
renewables,  such as  the Chakachamna  hydro  project, coming  on-                                                              
line.   Importantly,  natural gas  remains a  base-load source  of                                                              
generation.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
3:34:46 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  RAMRAS  recalled  that  representatives  from  the                                                              
Office  of  Fossil  Energy,  U.S.   Department  of  Energy  (DOE),                                                              
identified  natural  gas as  the  "bridge fuel"  for  the next  50                                                              
years.  He  pointed out that on  slide 3, natural gas  is shown as                                                              
a modest  fraction of  the projected energy  portfolio.   He asked                                                              
whether the graph  is reflective of gas pipeline  projects such as                                                              
Denali-The  Alaska Gas  Pipeline,  the Alaska  Gasline  Inducement                                                              
Act (AGIA), or in-state gas.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
3:36:53 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. HARPER  responded  that slide  3 is based  upon the  base-case                                                              
gas  supply and  price forecast.    To develop  the forecast,  his                                                              
company relied  on currently  published studies, discussions  with                                                              
state agencies, producers, and utilities, and a probabilistic-                                                                  
based analysis of  supplies and prices.  Looking at  the supply of                                                              
energy,  the forecast  was  also  based on  the  following:   most                                                              
recent forecasts  from the Department  of Natural  Resources (DNR)                                                              
on  the resources  remaining  in the  Cook  Inlet; the  assumption                                                              
that  a generic  in-state pipeline  will be  operational in  2015-                                                              
2016; the assumption  that a source of imported  liquefied natural                                                              
gas (LNG) would be available for the short- and long-term.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
3:38:44 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  RAMRAS has  heard  that Black  &  Veatch wants  to                                                              
undermine discussion about an in-state gas pipeline.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
3:39:21 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. HARPER relayed  that the [forecasted] non-Cook  Inlet supplies                                                              
of natural  gas are from  the North Slope.   He advised  the issue                                                              
is the assumption  of the price  of the gas; his firm  assumed the                                                              
price  of  the gas  from  the  North Slope  to  Southcentral  will                                                              
reflect the  world market price,  "with world LNG prices  as being                                                              
essentially a cap,  if you will, as to what prices  would be."  In                                                              
Black &  Veatch's assessment,  there would be  enough gas  to meet                                                              
the needs  of the  Railbelt,  but at a  market price.   He  opined                                                              
those assumptions are also held by DNR.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
3:41:19 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE RAMRAS asked:                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
     What kind of factors did you have for the importation                                                                      
      of LNG?  When do you see Alaska, which is so energy-                                                                      
     rich, importing  gas, and at what price are  we going to                                                                   
     import  gas?   And  give  me, [information]  other  than                                                                   
     prevailing indices  of world gas  prices: I need  you to                                                                   
     break it down...                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
3:42:22 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  HARPER said  the gas  supply after  2015-2016 is  essentially                                                              
from Cook Inlet  and the North Slope.   The Cook Inlet  pricing of                                                              
new gas, plus the  pricing of the North Slope gas,  would be based                                                              
on  world  market  prices;  therefore, the  gas  supply  does  not                                                              
include LNG long-term, except in the near-term as a bridge fuel.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
3:43:54 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE RAMRAS re-stated his question.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
3:44:06 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. HARPER  answered  from 2015-2016  on, the  gas is coming  from                                                              
Cook  Inlet and  the North  Slope.   The LNG  price is  used  as a                                                              
benchmark  for  what   the  price  would  be,   after  taking  out                                                              
transportation.                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
3:44:27 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE RAMRAS  asked whether Black & Veatch  is advocating                                                              
for the importation of LNG to Alaska.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
3:44:53 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. HARPER  said his  firm has no  position on  that.   In further                                                              
response to Representative  Ramras, he said the  plan "essentially                                                              
is in-state gas."                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
3:44:59 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. HARPER  continued speaking about  slide 3, and noted  that the                                                              
capital  investment for  this portfolio  of projects  is about  $9                                                              
billion over 50  years.  Based on the assumptions  used, the model                                                              
chose  large hydro,  and the  version chosen  was the  Chakachamna                                                              
project over  the Susitna  project.  However,  he pointed  out the                                                              
Susitna project has  been evaluated since the early  80's, and the                                                              
cost estimates are  "solid."  The assumptions  around Chakachamna,                                                              
such as  permitting  and costs,  were reviewed  in a limited  way,                                                              
and he was unsure of their accuracy.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
3:46:59 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GATTO  assumed the Chakachamna project  is simpler,                                                              
easier, and cheaper, but results in less power.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
3:47:20 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  HARPER further  explained that  the Susitna  cost and  output                                                              
estimates used  in the study were  based upon a study  done by HDR                                                              
Alaska.   HDR took  work done  in the  1980's, and determined  the                                                              
impacts due  to inflation.   The HDR study  also looked  to "right                                                              
size"  the Susitna  project  for the  region,  because the  1980's                                                              
work assumed  the energy load  for the  Railbelt in 2010  would be                                                              
8,000 megawatts, and it is actually less than 1,000 megawatts.                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
3:48:51 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR MILLETT asked  for the reason the study  chose a specific                                                              
hydro project.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
3:49:14 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  HARPER  stated  there are  generic  and  specific  identified                                                              
projects  in the  portfolio.   In  the case  of  hydro, there  was                                                              
Susitna, Chakachamna,  Glacier Fork,  and three generic  potential                                                              
projects.   It  made  sense to  identify  the  projects that  were                                                              
under  development;   in  fact,   not  including  the   identified                                                              
projects  has  a negative  effect  on  the  quality of  the  work,                                                              
especially for hydro,  because the costs and  operating parameters                                                              
are  site-specific.    Mr.  Harper then  presented  slide  4  that                                                              
listed  the generation  projects  in the  preferred resource  plan                                                              
based upon  scenario 1/B.   These are the  projects that  would be                                                              
operating  and generating  electricity by  2020.   The first  item                                                              
was Demand  Side Management/Energy  Efficiency (DSM/EE)  programs.                                                              
He explained  that DSM/EE  programs were  included because  of the                                                              
assumption that  when residential  or commercial customers  reduce                                                              
their use of  energy by investing in a high  efficiency appliance,                                                              
there  is an incremental  cost.   Also, there  was the  assumption                                                              
that the  utility, GRETC,  or the  state, will  pay 50  percent of                                                              
that cost.   These DSM/EE  programs equate  to about 8  percent of                                                              
the  total  energy  requirements  of  the  region.    Although  in                                                              
certain states, energy  efficiency is at 15-20  percent, the study                                                              
uses an 8-10  percent rating for  Alaska due to limited  data, the                                                              
isolated network,  severe weather conditions, and  the limited use                                                              
of  electric space  heating.   The  next project  was the  Nikiski                                                              
Wind  project  that is  under  development  and would  provide  15                                                              
megawatts  of power.    The next  item was  the  Healy Clean  Coal                                                              
Project (HCCP).                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
3:53:43 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  RAMRAS  asked  for   the  amount  of  the  average                                                              
kilowatt  cost  for  the  Railbelt  that was  used  in  the  draft                                                              
report.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
3:53:54 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  HARPER said  the draft  report  contained an  error, and  the                                                              
actual estimate  is an  average, wholesale cost  of power  of 17.5                                                              
cents  per kilowatt  hour (kWh)  in nominal dollars,  or about  12                                                              
cents in 2009 dollars.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
3:54:34 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  RAMRAS  asked  when  Black  &  Veatch  caught  the                                                              
mistake.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
3:54:50 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  HARPER said  the mistake  had no  impact on  the analysis  in                                                              
terms of  the selection of  the resources.   The kWh  estimate was                                                              
calculated after  the resources were selected and  the models run,                                                              
thus  it  did not  impact  the  resource  selections made  in  the                                                              
draft,   or  the   final   report.     In   further  response   to                                                              
Representative  Ramras, he  said the  mistake was  found when  the                                                              
draft  report   was  released.     The   models  were   re-run  to                                                              
incorporate  changes  from  the  public  comment  period  and  the                                                              
correction to the estimate.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
3:55:57 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE RAMRAS  asked for the month and year  of the period                                                              
of the distortion to the models.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
3:56:08 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. HARPER  said there  was no  distortion in  the models  because                                                              
"the  calculation  was  done  outside  of the  models  and  is  an                                                              
output."  He further  explained that the change was  made within a                                                              
six-week period  when Black  & Veatch went  from the draft  to the                                                              
final report,  and after a four-week  public comment period.   Mr.                                                              
Harper returned  to the  list of  preferred resource projects  and                                                              
said  the   Fire  Island  Wind   project  is  expected   to  begin                                                              
operations  in 2012,  providing 54  megawatts.   The remainder  of                                                              
the projects  are:   the Southcentral  Power Plant, that  is being                                                              
developed by Chugach  Electric Association (Chugach  Electric) and                                                              
Anchorage   Municipal  Light   &  Power   (ML&P),  providing   180                                                              
megawatts;  Glacier   Fork  Hydro   that  is  expected   in  2014,                                                              
providing 75 megawatts;  two municipal solid waste  (MSW) projects                                                              
that are expected  in 2015 and 2017, providing 22  megawatts and 4                                                              
megawatts;  Golden  Valley Electric Association (GVEA)  North Pole                                                              
retrofit project;  Mt. Spurr Geothermal projects  expected in 2020                                                              
and 2022,  providing  50 megawatts  from Unit  1 and 50  megawatts                                                              
from Unit  2.  Also  recommended was the  parallel pursuit  of the                                                              
Chakachamna/Susitna/Glacier  Fork hydro  projects.  He  reiterated                                                              
that  the next  step  for Susitna  is  development,  and the  next                                                              
steps for Chakachamna  and Glacier Fork are analyses  to determine                                                              
whether the  projects can  be built.   The final  item was  a full                                                              
list  of  19 identified  transmission  projects  that  total  $1.6                                                              
billion.   Slide 5 was a  list of near-term transmission  projects                                                              
that  are  needed within  the  next  five  years to  maintain  the                                                              
reliability of  the existing system.   The near-term  transmission                                                              
projects are:   Soldotna-Quartz  Creek transmission line  for $126                                                              
million;  Quartz  Creek-University   transmission  line  for  $165                                                              
million; Douglas-Teeland  transmission line for $63  million; Lake                                                              
Lorraine-Douglas  transmission line  for  $80 million;  static-var                                                              
compensators  (SVCs);  Southern  Intertie  study for  $1  million.                                                              
Also included is  a battery energy storage system  (BESS) which is                                                              
a generic program to address the issue of frequency regulation.                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
4:00:23 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  HARPER  presented slide  6  that  illustrated the  8  percent                                                              
impact of  DSM/EE programs on the  required energy load.   Slide 7                                                              
showed  the  wholesale  cost  of   power,  in  2010  dollars,  for                                                              
selected  scenarios.   He pointed  out there  are two  sensitivity                                                              
cases  that have  power  costs less  than  the preferred  resource                                                              
plan 1A/1B.  The  first is the scenario that assumes  there are no                                                              
CO2 taxes;  however, future  CO2 taxes are  included in  the base-                                                              
case.   Mr. Harper advised  that three  years from now,  the state                                                              
will have  a better  sense of  whether there  will be  CO2 federal                                                              
legislation  and the costs  thereof.   The other sensitivity  case                                                              
doubles the  impact of DSM/EE on  the energy load.  Also  shown on                                                              
slide 7  was the  sensitivity case  with the  cost of  power using                                                              
Susitna hydro  instead of Chakachamna  hydro; therefore,  in 2025,                                                              
under traditional  utility ratemaking  practices, there is  a jump                                                              
in the  cost at  the point  Susitna comes  on-line.   Slide  8, he                                                              
said,  was the  "capital  gap slide."    In conjunction  with  the                                                              
report, AEA  hired Seattle-Northwest Securities  Corporation (SNW)                                                              
to  look at  the  ability of  the  current Railbelt  utilities  to                                                              
finance future  capital infrastructure,  and to mitigate  the rate                                                              
impact  thereof.  The  graph showed  that the  remaining high  and                                                              
low debt  capacity of all of  the six utilities together  is $2-$4                                                              
billion.     Also   illustrated   were  the   cumulative   capital                                                              
expenditures of  the preferred resource  plan that reach  about $9                                                              
billion in  2059.  Therefore, the  capital gap is a  difference of                                                              
about $5 million  that according to SNW, the  six utilities cannot                                                              
finance independently.                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
4:06:21 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  HARPER presented  slide  9  that was  a  comparison of  costs                                                              
between  plan 1A/1B  and  plan 1A/1B  with  committed  units.   He                                                              
described  committed units  as projects that  are currently  being                                                              
planned  or  developed  by  the   utilities,  but  that  were  not                                                              
selected as regional  resource projects, such as  Healy Clean Coal                                                              
and the Southcentral  power plant.  Mr. Harper  explained that the                                                              
utilities are  moving forward with  these projects because  of the                                                              
uncertainty  about the  formation  of GRETC,  or another  regional                                                              
entity.    Although  the  chart  shows  a  difference  about  $450                                                              
million,  the  report  concludes  that  the  difference  would  be                                                              
greater,  because  the independent  utilities  would  not see  the                                                              
impact  of  the  8 percent  DSM/EE.    Moreover,  the  independent                                                              
utilities  may not  be able  to  finance the  needed $1.6  million                                                              
build-out to  the transmission system.   Finally, slide  10 showed                                                              
the results of  SNW's financial analysis on  alternative financing                                                              
available  to the  utilities.   He reiterated  that the  utilities                                                              
cannot  "finance the  future on  their own."   However, the  base-                                                              
case  used  standard  capital  market  financing  on  all  of  the                                                              
projects   thus  SNW   considered   the  following   alternatives:                                                              
collection  of   a  one  cent   per  kilowatt  ratepayer   benefit                                                              
surcharge;  "pay-go"  financing;  construction  work  in  progress                                                              
(CWIP)  financing;  state  financial  assistance  such as  a  $2.4                                                              
billion  zero-interest  loan.    He emphasized  that  SNW  is  not                                                              
advocating  for  any  of  these alternatives.    Mr.  Harper  then                                                              
called  attention to  the results  of the analysis:   a  base-case                                                              
maximum  rate of thirteen  cents  per kWh and  average rate  seven                                                              
cents per  kWh; an  alternative case maximum  rate of  eight cents                                                              
per kWh  and average  rate six cents  per kWh.   He stressed  that                                                              
these numbers represent  the incremental cost associated  with the                                                              
capital of  the projects only.   Also, although the  average rates                                                              
are almost  the same, the  big difference  in the maximum  rate is                                                              
tied  to the  cost of  the Susitna  hydro  project in  2025.   Mr.                                                              
Harper concluded  that there  are options that  allow the  cost of                                                              
the  $9.1  billion   capital  program  to  be   spread  out  along                                                              
generations.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
4:12:47 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  GATTO  expressed   his  concern  about  ratepayers                                                              
paying  a one  cent  surcharge  for  years without  receiving  any                                                              
benefit.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
4:13:22 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  HARPER said  the  surcharge and  CWIP  would have  ratepayers                                                              
begin to pay before the project is running.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GATTO  asked whether those who are  charged without                                                              
benefit could be reimbursed.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
4:14:20 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. HARPER said that is a policy call.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GATTO asked where nuclear power fits in the plan.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
4:14:56 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. HARPER  acknowledged that  nuclear power  was considered  as a                                                              
small modular  option, but  was not chosen  as a resource  for the                                                              
future, based on economics.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
4:15:28 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  GATTO  heard that  nuclear  would  cost less  than                                                              
eight cents per  kWh, and has the other benefits  of clean air, no                                                              
CO2  capture,  continuing base-load,  and  long  life.   He  asked                                                              
whether Black  & Veatch  decided to  eliminate nuclear  power from                                                              
the study.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
4:16:18 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  HARPER  explained  that  there   are  two  types  of  nuclear                                                              
options, conventional  and new  technology.  Conventional  nuclear                                                              
plants  are  too  large  for  the  Railbelt  region.    The  newer                                                              
technologies  are promising,  but are  not commercially  available                                                              
based on  cost estimates.   He opined "it  is a technology  that's                                                              
worth  considering  in the  future,  but  it is  not  commercially                                                              
economical, in our view."                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
4:17:13 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  JOHNSON   referred  to  slide  4   and  asked  for                                                              
clarification on the process.                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
4:18:04 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  HARPER explained  that the  preferred  resources were  chosen                                                              
based on  the output  of two  specific models,  both of  which are                                                              
based  on  economic   selection.    One  model   determined  which                                                              
resources  are the  best to build,  and the  other determined  how                                                              
much  is used  of  each  resource.   Both  models  are based  upon                                                              
assumptions  with regard  to capital,  operating,  and fuel  costs                                                              
for the different technologies.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
4:18:32 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE JOHNSON  re-stated his question regarding  when the                                                              
estimated cost of power becomes part of the model.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
4:18:53 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. HARPER  said the  five cent and  seventeen cent  estimates are                                                              
calculations  of what  the  total average  wholesale  cost of  the                                                              
entire resource  plan is, based  upon which resources  are chosen,                                                              
and how  much the resources  are used.   That modeling  comes from                                                              
capital,  operating, and  fuel cost  assumptions for  each of  the                                                              
technologies.   Therefore,  the selection  of resources was  based                                                              
upon  many  detailed economic  assumptions  for  each  technology.                                                              
From there,  came the calculation  of the overall average  cost of                                                              
power, for  example, the five  cent and seventeen  cent estimates.                                                              
Mr. Harper  said, "... this list  says, that based upon  the input                                                              
assumptions that  we use  for all of  the technologies,  these are                                                              
the most  cost-effective resources  to bring  on in the  first ten                                                              
years of the plan."                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
4:20:07 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  JOHNSON referred  to  slide 7,  and  asked for  an                                                              
explanation  of the cost  of the  first year  of Susitna,  and the                                                              
reduction of that cost after only one year.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
4:20:27 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. HARPER  advised that  the curve  in the  cost for the  Susitna                                                              
project is  the result  of traditional  ratemaking methodology  in                                                              
that  ratepayers are  not charged  until a  project is  generating                                                              
power.   Therefore, in the  initial year, there  is a jump  in the                                                              
cost  due to  depreciation.   Furthermore, a  large hydro  project                                                              
such as Susitna  has high up-front capital costs,  and low ongoing                                                              
costs.   Regarding the selection  of the resources, the  model was                                                              
based on  50 years, with a  fixed-charge rate, and based  upon the                                                              
life  of  the technology.    For  example,  for natural  gas,  the                                                              
fixed-charge  rate was  based on  30 years, and  for large  hydro,                                                              
the fixed-charge  rate was  based on 100  years; thus  the capital                                                              
costs  are recovered  within the  appropriate time  period.   This                                                              
led to the selection  of Chakachamna, because the  project was not                                                              
as large as Susitna,  but still has a 100-year  period of recovery                                                              
of capital in the economic analysis.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
4:23:09 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE JOHNSON  asked for  an explanation of  the recovery                                                              
term.                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
4:23:20 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  HARPER responded  that the  cost associated  with capital  is                                                              
based on  the life of  the project.   Therefore, the  economics of                                                              
Susitna  and Chakachamna  are based  upon a  100-year recovery  of                                                              
capital cost.   The modeling horizon  was 50 years, and  the model                                                              
factors in the value of projects that extend beyond 50 years.                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
4:24:14 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  JOHNSON  observed  this  may be  a  comparison  of                                                              
apples and oranges.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
4:24:35 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  HARPER  opined  there  would  not be  a  material  change  in                                                              
resources selected for a model of 50 or 100 years.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
4:25:07 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE JOHNSON  asked whether a  model has been  run based                                                              
on a 1984 construction of Susitna.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
4:25:42 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  HARPER  said no.    However,  2008  actual results  from  the                                                              
individual utilities were used.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
4:28:12 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR EDGMON  asked about  the cost to  update the  model every                                                              
three to five years.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
4:28:19 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. HARPER observed  that the model is not proprietary  to Black &                                                              
Veatch, and new files  could be run for a fraction  of the cost by                                                              
the utilities, consultants, or GRETC, if staff is available.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
4:29:07 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE RAMRAS  asked for the cost of the report.   He also                                                              
asked  for additional  testimony at  a later  date addressing  the                                                              
deliverability  and cost  of  natural gas  during  the first  five                                                              
years.                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
4:29:46 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  JOHNSON assumed  the model was  created at  a time                                                              
of extraordinary high costs of steel and labor.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
4:30:06 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. HARPER assured  the committee the report was not  based at the                                                              
peak of  prices; however,  a decline  in prices  will result  in a                                                              
lower  total  cost, but  would  not  necessarily have  a  material                                                              
effect on the choice of resources.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
4:31:10 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE JOHNSON  asked whether  the change in  prices would                                                              
cause projects to be added or removed from the list.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
4:31:39 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  HARPER  said  he  was  unsure.    He  guessed  that  projects                                                              
selected for the first 10 years would not change much.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
4:32:23 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE JOHNSON  asked whether there are projects  that are                                                              
right at the line.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
MR. HARPER said he was unsure without further study.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
4:32:55 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE   JOHNSON  encouraged   additional  research   into                                                              
projects that "were on the bubble."                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
4:33:17 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR MILLETT  read the  seven questions  posed to  the invited                                                              
presenters [original punctuation provided]:                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
     1) Project timeline-completion date and the date power                                                                     
     will be turned on:                                                                                                         
      2) Total cost of project and funding request (state                                                                       
     revenue):                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
     3) Transmission needs to grid - who pays?:                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
     4) Cost of power to consumer (KWH):                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
     5) Amount of power supplied to railbelt:                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
     6) Likelihood of completion:                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
     7) Permitting roadblocks-Environmental challenges:                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
4:34:20 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  STRANDBERG  said  he  was representing  AEA  on  the  Susitna                                                              
Hydroelectric  (Hydro) Power  Project.   He pointed  out that  AEA                                                              
was participating  not  as a project  advocate,  but as a  project                                                              
custodian.   Mr.  Strandberg reminded  the committee  that in  the                                                              
'80s,  $132 million  was  expended to  develop  the Susitna  Hydro                                                              
Power  Project   culminating  in   a  Federal  Energy   Regulatory                                                              
Commission (FERC)  permit application.   Although the  project was                                                              
halted  by the  legislature in  1986, remaining  from the  earlier                                                              
study are  conceptual designs, records,  and records  of extensive                                                              
field work  for environmental and  geotechnical conditions  in the                                                              
Susitna basin.   He  noted that  the work  undertaken in  the last                                                              
two years  has been to understand  the body of the  previous work,                                                              
and  from  that AEA  has  developed  a  project concept  and  cost                                                              
estimate that  is right-sized  for the needs  of the  Railbelt for                                                              
the next 50 years.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
4:36:28 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. STRANDBERG  related that  AEA has found  the work done  on the                                                              
project in  the '80s to be "durable  and sound, and worthy  of use                                                              
as  we,  at   the  direction  of  the  legislature,   review  this                                                              
project."   He  noted that  the Susitna  Hydro Project  is a  high                                                              
first-cost project,  with significant power  availability benefits                                                              
and expansion  capability.  Relatively  speaking, the  project has                                                              
low development  risk.   Mr. Strandberg also  noted that  the work                                                              
done  on the  project was  coordinated with  the RIRP  contractor,                                                              
thus the  parties used  the demand curve  over the 50-year  period                                                              
to look at the potential sizes of the projects proposed.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
4:39:31 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
BOB BUTERA,  Civil Engineer,  HDR Alaska,  informed the  committee                                                              
HDR Alaska  was contracted about two  years ago to AEA  to look at                                                              
the Susitna  hydro project.   The first  phase of the  study began                                                              
before  the  RIRP study,  and  his  firm  looked at  the  original                                                              
project proposed  in the  '80s and  reevaluated the cost  estimate                                                              
of $5 billion.   Mr. Butera noted  the new study also  included an                                                              
additional 20  years of stream flow  records.  At the  time of the                                                              
RIRP  process, HDR  Alaska worked  with  Black &  Veatch and  AEA.                                                              
The project is  located about midway between the  Southcentral and                                                              
Fairbanks  regions  of  Alaska,  and  would  service  all  of  the                                                              
utilities in  the Railbelt.   Slide 4 was  a map that  illustrated                                                              
three  potential  dam sites  on  the  Susitna River:  Watana  Dam;                                                              
Devil Canyon  Dam; High Devil  Canyon Dam.   Slide 5  showed eight                                                              
alternative projects for the river.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
4:42:52 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. BUTERA  presented slide  6 which was  a chart summarizing  the                                                              
results of the  study on the following factors:   alternative; dam                                                              
type;  ultimate  capacity  of  megawatts;   construction  cost  in                                                              
billions of  dollars; energy generated  in gigawatts per  hour per                                                              
year; schedule  in years  from the  start of  licensing.   The Low                                                              
Watana Expandable  project was  the option  selected; in  fact, it                                                              
is basically the  same project that was proposed in  the mid '80s.                                                              
The project  has a rock fill dam,  a 600 megawatt capacity,  and a                                                              
construction  cost of just  under $5  billion in today's  dollars.                                                              
Slide  9  listed  the  following  conclusions  about  the  Susitna                                                              
project:   of the renewable resources  it is the most  studied and                                                              
best  understood;  the project  is  considered to  be  technically                                                              
feasible  even  when  compared   with  new  technology;  there  is                                                              
potential to expand  in stages and meet future  loads; large hydro                                                              
provides  an energy source  to stabilize  the grid;  environmental                                                              
risks  can  be resolved,  for  example  all  of the  projects  are                                                              
upstream  of the  passage  of anadromous  fish  due  to the  Devil                                                              
Canyon rapids;  seismic risk is  manageable through design;  it is                                                              
a long-term and stable source of power.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
4:47:19 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE GATTO  observed that the  river has a lot  of silt.                                                              
He expressed  his concern  about the accumulation  of silt  in the                                                              
river, and potential damage to the turbines.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
4:48:15 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. BUTERA  said those issues were  studied in the 1980's  and the                                                              
conclusion was  that the heavy silt  will drop out at  the head of                                                              
the reservoir,  and the  small fines will  reach the  turbines; in                                                              
fact, the storage  of a reservoir is divided into  active and dead                                                              
storage,  and the study  estimated  that less  than 10 percent  of                                                              
the dead storage would be filled by silt in 100 years.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
4:49:16 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  BUTERA then  responded  to the  committee's  questions.   The                                                              
project  timeline  is  15  years  from  the  start  of  licensing,                                                              
assuming  there is no  major litigation.   The  total cost  of the                                                              
Low Watana Expandable  Dam project is just under $5  billion.  The                                                              
project cost  includes transmission  to the  grid at the  existing                                                              
power  line  from Anchorage  to  Fairbanks,  and this  power  line                                                              
would be  upgraded by a  separate project.   The cost of  power to                                                              
consumers  [is  fifteen cents  per  kWh].    The amount  of  power                                                              
supplied to the  Railbelt is 2,600 gigawatt hours  per year, which                                                              
is  about 40  percent  of  the current  load.    There  is a  high                                                              
likelihood  of completion.   The  next steps  are to  look at  the                                                              
design, and concurrently  engage stakeholders, agencies,  fish and                                                              
wildlife [agencies],  and communities.  Mr. Butera  concluded that                                                              
the project  must bring forward all  of the work that  was done in                                                              
1985,  and  look  for  new  issues.   This  would  be  done  by  a                                                              
"resource workgroup"  working separately from the  FERC process in                                                              
order to understand the issues prior to the FERC application.                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
4:52:45 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE JOHNSON asked whether financing was considered.                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
4:52:52 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  BUTERA said  the  study of  financing  was  done through  the                                                              
RIRP.                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE JOHNSON  asked whether  the cost of  carbon credits                                                              
was included in the estimated power cost to consumers.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
4:53:24 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. STRANDBERG  said the  cost is  the "basic wholesale  levelized                                                              
...  power  rate assuming 2,600  gigawatt hours of  power produced                                                              
over the  year and the total  construction cost, and  it basically                                                              
assumes a financing  approach which ... is similar  to the Bradley                                                              
Lake model."                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
4:53:42 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE JOHNSON  referred to  the "advantages, in  terms of                                                              
carbon,  that hydro  delivers."    He asked  whether  there is  an                                                              
allowance  for using  carbon  credits as  a  bonding mechanism  to                                                              
finance hydro projects.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
4:54:42 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. STRANDBERG  advised that  the study  did not  go that  far; in                                                              
fact,  there was  an effort  to  keep the  comparisons "apples  to                                                              
apples."  An  answer to Representative Johnson's  question will be                                                              
provided.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
4:55:35 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  JOHNSON  expressed   his  understanding  that  the                                                              
capital  cost  of a  coal  fired  plant  was figured  without  any                                                              
consideration of upcoming carbon issues.                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
4:55:51 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. STRANDBERG  explained that the  integrated plan assumed  a CO2                                                              
tax for all  fossil fuels; however,  there was no tax  assumed for                                                              
the  renewable  energy  projects.     Furthermore,  the  base-line                                                              
analysis  included CO2  and carbon  taxes  for all  of the  fossil                                                              
fuel projects.   The study looked at the possibility  of no carbon                                                              
tax in  a sensitivity analysis,  and in the  data one can  see the                                                              
effect of a carbon tax on the cost of power.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
4:56:36 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  JOHNSON   requested  an  opportunity   to  further                                                              
explore this issue.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
4:56:57 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
ERIC  YOULD,  Program Director,  Chakachamna  Hydropower  Project,                                                              
TDX  Power,  Inc.,  informed  the   committee  TDX  Power  is  the                                                              
electric utility that  holds a FERC permit for  the assessment and                                                              
development   of  the   Chakachamna  Hydropower   Project.     The                                                              
Chakachamna Hydropower  Project was  originally considered  in the                                                              
late 1940's  by the Department  of Interior|Bureau  of Reclamation                                                              
and by the U.S.  Army Corps of Engineers in the  late 1970's.  The                                                              
project was  then considered by  the Alaska Power Authority  as an                                                              
alternative to  the Susitna dam  project, along with  Bradley Lake                                                              
and  other  power generation  projects.    At  that time,  it  was                                                              
determined  that   Chakachamna  and   Bradley  Lake   were  worthy                                                              
projects;  however, Bradley  Lake  was already  authorized by  the                                                              
federal  government,  thus  Chakachamna  was  put  on  the  shelf,                                                              
although it was  as economically desirable as Susitna.   Mr. Yould                                                              
explained that  this project is a  high head lake with  a tap, and                                                              
a power  tunnel  that brings  water to  a power plant  at a  lower                                                              
elevation.   The  elevation  at Chakachamna  Lake  is about  1,000                                                              
feet,  and the  project would  tap the  lake and  bring the  water                                                              
through a  12-mile power tunnel  to the underground  powerhouse in                                                              
the MacArthur  drainage basin,  thus developing  300 megawatts  of                                                              
power  that  is equal  to  about  25 percent  of  the  use in  the                                                              
Railbelt  today.   The  cost of  the project  is  $1.7 billion  in                                                              
today's  dollars.     Originally  the  project  included   a  dam;                                                              
however,  the  present  project  uses  the  lake  as  a  reservoir                                                              
without  the construction  of  a  dam.   The  powerhouse would  be                                                              
located  40  miles from  the  transmission  line at  the  existing                                                              
Chugach Electric  Beluga substation.   Mr.  Yould displayed  a map                                                              
showing the Beluga  substation, the natural gas  transmission line                                                              
under Cook  Inlet to  Anchorage, and the  plan of development  for                                                              
the Chakachamna project.   He noted that the  project would divert                                                              
about 80 percent  of the water flowing into the  Chakachamna Lake,                                                              
which is a major environmental issue that must be investigated.                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
5:06:06 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. YOULD  displayed  a schematic  figure of  the intake and  gate                                                              
shaft  section,  and further  described  the  lake tap  and  power                                                              
tunnel.   He  pointed out  that this  technique has  been done  in                                                              
Alaska at  the Snettisham  hydro dam, the  Lake Tyee  hydro plant,                                                              
the Lake Dorothy  hydro plant, and the Eklutna  hydro power plant.                                                              
The surface  elevation of the  lake would  be drawn down  to about                                                              
80  feet  to  accommodate  winter power  generation,  and  in  the                                                              
spring  the  lake  would  fill  and stay  full  all  summer.    He                                                              
displayed  a plan of  the powerhouse.   In  the winter,  to ensure                                                              
downstream  flow  and  the successful  migration  of  fish,  there                                                              
would be  a two-mile long fish  passage tunnel, but in  the summer                                                              
normal  fisheries  migration should  continue  without  artificial                                                              
means.   On the  issue of land  ownership, he  noted that  most of                                                              
the land around  Chakachamna Lake and river is  state land, except                                                              
for  Lake Clark  National Park,  and the  transmission lines  will                                                              
cross over  a portion of  land owned by  Cook Inlet  Region, Inc.,                                                              
(CIRI).                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
5:09:59 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. YOULD  further addressed the  fish migration issue.   There is                                                              
a fish  run up the  Chakachamna drainage  basin, and a  1982 study                                                              
indicated 78,000  sockeye salmon entered the basin.   He expressed                                                              
confidence  that this  migration  would be  protected.   Regarding                                                              
wildlife  in the  area,  there  are 56  species  of  birds and  16                                                              
species  of  mammals, and  although  none  are on  the  endangered                                                              
species list,  the potential  impact to the  Beluga whale  in Cook                                                              
Inlet may  become a  factor.  Geotechnical  considerations  in the                                                              
area are the  Castle Mountain fault, the Mount  Spurr volcano, and                                                              
the possible movement  of four glaciers.  He showed  slides of the                                                              
topography of the  site of the vertical shaft  and gated structure                                                              
at  the  outlet  of  the  lake,  and  the  site  of  the  McArthur                                                              
powerhouse.    Mr. Yould  turned  to  the subject  of  development                                                              
costs  and stated  that TDX  Power  has spent  about $2.5  million                                                              
over  the last  three years.   In  addition, he  estimated that  a                                                              
total  of  $30  million  is  needed  to  complete  the  permitting                                                              
process  over  a  period  of  five   years,  including  additional                                                              
fisheries  work.  Beyond  that, construction  costs are  estimated                                                              
to be  $1.7 billion,  including $90  million for the  transmission                                                              
line.   Mr. Yould  concluded that  using the  AEA model-a  50-year                                                              
assessment  and 5 percent  money, no  equity, and set  operational                                                              
costs-the cost  of power was  in the range  of six cents  to eight                                                              
cents per  kWh.  However,  using expected  higher costs  of money,                                                              
operations,  and management,  a  more realistic  estimate is  nine                                                              
cents  per kWh.   He  opined that  a net  present worth  levelized                                                              
cost  of  power  for  Chakachamna  is  less  than  Susitna.    The                                                              
schedule  for  the  project  is   as  follows:    five  years  for                                                              
preliminary  permits  and  the   FERC  licensing;  forty-eight  to                                                              
fifty-four  months  for  project construction;  power  on-line  in                                                              
2019.                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
5:16:08 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  JOHNSON  asked for  details  about  the 2006  FERC                                                              
permit.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
5:16:29 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  YOULD  responded that  in  2006,  FERC issued  a  preliminary                                                              
permit for  a three-year  exclusive right  to assess the  project.                                                              
Although that  permit expired in  11/09, TDX recently  applied for                                                              
and received a second permit for another three years.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
5:16:57 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  RAMRAS  recognized Mr.  Swenson  for  his work  in                                                              
geothermal energy.                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
5:18:08 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
BOB  SWENSON,  Project  Manager,   Alaska  In-State  Gas  Pipeline                                                              
Project, Department  of Natural Resources (DNR),  said he accepted                                                              
the  project   manager  position   in  1/10   and  expressed   his                                                              
excitement about  the project.  Mr. Swenson advised  that although                                                              
this  project is  not  far enough  along in  the  process of  cost                                                              
estimation  to  have  all  of  the   answers  to  the  committee's                                                              
questions,  all of  the information  will be  provided as  soon as                                                              
possible,  perhaps in May  or June.   He  presented slide  2 which                                                              
illustrated that  the historical production of natural  gas in the                                                              
Cook Inlet levels  off in the period between 2011  and 2012.  Also                                                              
shown  are possible  reserves based  on analyses,  well logs,  and                                                              
seismic data.  Slide  3 showed the historical daily  gas usage for                                                              
power and  heating in Southcentral.   The demand for  power ranged                                                              
between approximately  370 million cubic feet per  day (MMcf/d) in                                                              
winter  and 110  MMcf/d per  day in summer.   It  is important  to                                                              
know  that  spikes in  demand  are  a problem  for  producers  and                                                              
consumers, as it  is very expensive to provide  for deliverability                                                              
all  year when  demand is  fluctuating.   In the  late 1960's,  an                                                              
industrial  infrastructure  was   developed  to  utilize  the  gas                                                              
throughout  the   year  and  industry  provided   the  basin  with                                                              
relatively  inexpensive gas  for  many years.    He mentioned  his                                                              
experience  in resource assessments  and  displayed slide  4 which                                                              
illustrated thirty-five  trillion cubic feet (TCF)  of natural gas                                                              
reserves in  the North Slope  region, and  two TCF of  natural gas                                                              
available in  Cook Inlet, as of  2005.  Slide 5  illustrated known                                                              
gas reserves  in the Prudhoe and  Kuparuk regions, and  many other                                                              
possible gas reserves in the "gas-rich basin."                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
5:23:59 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE   RAMRAS    observed   that    Anadarko   Petroleum                                                              
Corporation (Anadarko) has suspended drilling in the Gubik area.                                                                
                                                                                                                                
5:24:23 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. SWENSON  clarified that Anadarko  is evaluating  data acquired                                                              
from wells  recently drilled.   Slide  6 illustrated  undiscovered                                                              
conventional gas  potential of 119  TCF in the National  Petroleum                                                              
Reserve  in  Alaska   (NPRA)  and  other  large   potential  areas                                                              
offshore.   Slide  7  illustrated potential  gas  hydrates in  the                                                              
North Slope area  that could be up  to 85 TCF.  Mr.  Swenson spoke                                                              
of resource activity in sub-permafrost hydrates and shale gas.                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
5:26:34 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE RAMRAS  asked who is participating  in the resource                                                              
activity.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
5:26:47 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  SWENSON answered  Alaskans  and the  U.S. Geological  Survey,                                                              
along  with the state.   Mr.  Swenson stressed  the importance  of                                                              
infrastructure  to the  development  of potential  resources,  and                                                              
the  small   diameter  gas   pipeline  would   be  part   of  that                                                              
infrastructure.   Slide 8 showed  potential pipeline routes  for a                                                              
24-inch  diameter pipeline  from the  North Slope  to Cook  Inlet.                                                              
He  noted that  the  information  presented is  part  of the  work                                                              
performed in  the previous fiscal  year, including a study  of the                                                              
Richardson  Highway and  Parks  Highway spur  routes,  stand-alone                                                              
routes,  and  pre-build.    Slide  9 listed  the  purpose  of  the                                                              
state's effort  as follows:   evaluate a stand-alone  gas pipeline                                                              
project that transports  gas from the North Slope  to tidewater in                                                              
the Cook Inlet,  with off-takes points for Fairbanks  and resource                                                              
development;  provide a back-up  plan for  the large diameter  gas                                                              
line  with spur  lines to  Southcentral for  in-state use;  reduce                                                              
risk to  potential project by  acquiring major permits,  determine                                                              
cost of  transport and  economic feasibility;  prepare permit  and                                                              
project data  package to transfer  project to pipeline  developer.                                                              
Mr.  Swenson  further  explained   that  the  methodology  of  the                                                              
project  is to  reduce  risk by  defining  costs, acquiring  major                                                              
permits,  and acquiring  letters  of intent  to  bring buyers  and                                                              
sellers together and  to let the marketplace decide  the scope and                                                              
timing.  He  related that the work completed  includes alternative                                                              
route analysis,  the initial  project description for  permitting,                                                              
the  commercial  group scoping  document,  the initial  review  of                                                              
ENSTAR Natural Gas  Company Capital Cost Estimate  - Pipeline, and                                                              
that all major permits  have been applied for.   The work underway                                                              
includes  updating pipeline  cost  estimates,  developing cost  of                                                              
facilities  and   the  cost   of  transport  analysis,   preparing                                                              
detailed project  descriptions, continued engineering  support for                                                              
the  environmental impact  studies (EIS)  and rights-of-way  (ROW)                                                              
processes,  identifying commercial  entities  to finalize  costing                                                              
and  permitting   for  construction   sanction,  developing   data                                                              
package  for  full   economic  analysis,  and  working   with  the                                                              
producer group and identifying new market potential.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
5:31:51 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. SWENSON  turned to  the subject  of facilities scenarios,  and                                                              
advised that  one early option for  the in-state gas  pipeline was                                                              
a  line  through the  Gubic  field.    That  option has  now  been                                                              
identified  as  an  alternate  route,   rather  than  the  primary                                                              
option.   The  focus now  is on  gas  from the  Prudhoe Bay  Unit,                                                              
under  four  scenarios.    The  chemistry  of  the  gas  from  the                                                              
Foothills  area is  similar to  Cook  Inlet gas  in that  it is  a                                                              
methane gas  and is  dry and  very clean,  and is "pipeline  ready                                                              
essentially."   Alternatively,  the North  Slope gas will  require                                                              
significant  conditioning  thus the  project  is  looking at  four                                                              
different  configurations  of pipe  that  vary with  gas  handling                                                              
facilities and gas  cleaning facilities at the North  Slope, or at                                                              
Cook  Inlet, as  well as  pulling untreated  gas with  stabilizers                                                              
down  the pipe.   Mr.  Swenson stressed  that  the facilities  are                                                              
very important  in order to  understand the different  options and                                                              
the associated  costs.   In addition,  each scenario is  evaluated                                                              
at 250, 500,  750, and 1000  MMcf/d, thus the study  will evaluate                                                              
16  different  scenarios   simultaneously.    In   response  to  a                                                              
question from  Representative Tuck, he  said all of  the scenarios                                                              
take North Slope gas from the Prudhoe Bay Unit reserves.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
5:34:17 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR  MILLETT asked whether  the in-state  gas pipeline  study                                                              
would  include  scenarios "way  out  of  the AGIA  requirement  of                                                              
nothing more than half a Bcf [transported] a day."                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
5:34:52 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. SWENSON  clarified that  the study looks  at each  scenario to                                                              
see the  volumes and  the economics  associated  with each  of the                                                              
volumes.   This is a  back-up plan to  the AGIA process;  in fact,                                                              
in the alternate  analysis, it is  clear the cost of  the pipeline                                                              
as  a spur  line is  less than  a  stand-alone pipeline,  however,                                                              
there  is  a   risk  associated  with  the  completion   of  AGIA.                                                              
Therefore, Mr.  Swenson stressed  that even the  750 MMcf/d  and 1                                                              
billion   cubic  feet  per   day  (Bcf/d)   evaluations   must  be                                                              
considered in case  the spur line does not work.   He acknowledged                                                              
that if a  pipeline is built with  AGIA, and the in-state  line is                                                              
completed  first,  there  will  be  a penalty  for  gas  over  500                                                              
MMcf/d.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
5:36:09 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR  MILLETT asked  how long  the project  would wait  on the                                                              
AGIA process.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
5:36:32 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  SWENSON   expressed  his   understanding  that   the  current                                                              
timeline shows the  sanctioning date is 2014, following  the first                                                              
and second open season.                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
5:36:55 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR  MILLETT  assumed the  administration  would  wait to  go                                                              
forward on the in-state gas line until 2014.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
5:37:08 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. SWENSON advised  that the project will not wait  at this time;                                                              
however,  if either  AGIA or  Denali  - The  Alaska Gas  Pipeline,                                                              
looks like  it will  be completed,  this project  slows down.   He                                                              
assured  the committee  this  project will  continue  to "get  the                                                              
package,  make the  deal with  the development  companies and  the                                                              
North Slope producers and the Cook Inlet marketplace."                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR  MILLETT observed  that the  state will  not be making  a                                                              
decision on  an in-state  gas line for  two years, and  completion                                                              
is nine years away.                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
5:38:52 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. SWENSON recommended  looking at the cheapest  way to transport                                                              
gas from the  North Slope to the  Cook Inlet and points  along the                                                              
route.   Therefore, right  now the  state must gather  information                                                              
and build  models to  decide what  the costs will  be.   He opined                                                              
the sanctioning  points  of the  pipeline are  the "end member  of                                                              
the decision process."                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
5:40:12 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR  MILLETT  questioned whether  the  in-state  gas line  is                                                              
really a priority for the administration.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
5:41:03 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  SWENSON explained  that the  initial cost  estimates will  be                                                              
done  in  July and  the  cost  of service  models  will  determine                                                              
tariffs and the cost  of natural gas in the basin.   In July 2011,                                                              
the project will  be at the final  stages of the EIS  process.  At                                                              
that  time  decisions will  be  made  on  whether to  continue  in                                                              
concert  with  the AGIA  process  or  not.    He opined  the  cost                                                              
estimates are an important point of this decision.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
5:42:32 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE RAMRAS  expressed his respect for Mr.  Swanson.  He                                                              
stated  he  has  concerns  about  Black  &  Veatch  detailing  the                                                              
importation of  LNG in  its 50-year plan,  and that  the committee                                                              
has  glossed  over this  point.    He  noted  his desire  for  his                                                              
community of Fairbanks,  and all of the residents  along the Yukon                                                              
River,  to migrate  from diesel  to  gas, liquids,  or propane  as                                                              
soon as  possible.  Representative  Ramras commented on  the House                                                              
Finance Committee's  removal of state  money to fund  the in-state                                                              
gas pipeline.  He remarked:                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
     DNR  is setting  [Mr. Swenson]  up in  a very  peculiar,                                                                   
     impossible situation.   For many of us AGIA  is going to                                                                   
     fail  when  we  come  out of  July  31  with  a  heavily                                                                   
     conditioned  open season  ...  and in  the meantime  the                                                                   
     price of  oil closed at $82  a barrel ... for  that part                                                                   
     of  the state  that is on  an ever  dwindling supply  of                                                                   
     natural  gas, for  those of  us that are  on diesel  ...                                                                   
     it's just  part of a misery  index ... and  that doesn't                                                                   
     even begin  to consider our  friends that live  in rural                                                                   
     Alaska ...                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE RAMRAS  encouraged Mr. Swenson to  realize that the                                                              
state needs natural  gas now, and to have the project  ready to go                                                              
in October 2010.  He said:                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
     And  keep those  guys  at Black  &  Veatch  out of  your                                                                   
     workroom, because  they are just a hack job  for DNR ...                                                                   
     I  watched them  do  it ...  they  should  not have  any                                                                   
     access  to our  work  products until  Baker  Engineering                                                                   
     has  delivered its work  product to  the legislature  in                                                                   
     June or July of this year.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
5:46:56 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  TUCK  asked  if the  pre-build  alternatives  will                                                              
begin in Cook Inlet and head north.                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
5:47:32 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  SWENSON  said  yes.   He  expressed  his  understanding  that                                                              
either the Richardson  Highway or Parks Highway  pipeline would be                                                              
pre-built from Cook  Inlet to meet the large  diameter pipeline on                                                              
its way to Alberta  or Valdez.  Prior to the  opening of the large                                                              
diameter line,  if there is  a market and  there are  producers in                                                              
the Cook Inlet,  the pre-built pipeline would supply  gas into the                                                              
Fairbanks region.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
5:48:04 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. SWENSON  directed his comments  to Representative Ramras.   He                                                              
opined that  the present  time is  similar to  the 1960's  in Cook                                                              
Inlet, when the  current marketplace could not  support the supply                                                              
of gas;  however, although  all of the  options must  be carefully                                                              
considered, he  agreed that time is  of the essence.   He said his                                                              
orders, both from  the legislature and the administration,  are to                                                              
proceed  as  quickly as  possible.    Mr.  Swenson said  the  best                                                              
engineers  in Arctic  pipeline  design  and building  are  working                                                              
incredibly hard on the project.                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE JOHANSEN  referred to  slide 12, which  listed work                                                              
underway,  and  noted   one  task  was  to  identify   new  market                                                              
potential.   He acknowledged that  the report covered  permits and                                                              
the source  of gas,  but asked  when the  committee will  find out                                                              
about new markets  and tenants that will help pay  the tariffs for                                                              
the pipeline.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
5:51:47 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. SWENSON  answered that new market  potential is based  on what                                                              
can be  done in the basin  to increase the  market, such as  a gas                                                              
to liquids (GTL)  proposal and Agrium, Inc.  He  advised that this                                                              
task will  be worked  on though FY  11; in fact,  there will  be a                                                              
meeting with commercial  groups to bring up the issues  of the in-                                                              
state gas  market in the  Cook Inlet region.   He agreed  that the                                                              
per unit  volumes of gas  in any pipeline  are very  important for                                                              
the   cost-of-service   analysis.      Mr.   Swenson   anticipated                                                              
discussion  of  how  the  state  can  encourage,  and  possibility                                                              
incentivize, the  development of large  consumers in the  basin in                                                              
order  to  benefit  those  living  in  the  Railbelt  and  on  any                                                              
distribution system.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
5:54:03 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE JOHANSEN  re-stated his  interest in the  source of                                                              
a sufficient market.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR EDGMON observed  that the project needs  a private entity                                                              
to build  the pipeline,  a demand  for gas, and  a supply  of gas.                                                              
He  asked  whether  the  state  abandoning  the  AGIA  effort  and                                                              
focusing on the in-state line, would push the project along.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
5:55:27 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. SWENSON  said he  did not  believe the  answer was  to abandon                                                              
AGIA; however,  more funds  could be  directed toward  encouraging                                                              
industry into the  basin.  The current plan is to  put the package                                                              
together  with  the permits,  preliminary  engineering,  and  cost                                                              
estimates, and encourage  private development of the  project.  If                                                              
not, the  state will have  to make sure  that gas is  available to                                                              
the  Railbelt  region through  incentivizing  development,  or  by                                                              
owning  part  of the  pipeline.    A significant  portion  of  the                                                              
information necessary  for the policymakers to make  this decision                                                              
will be available on July 1.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
5:57:08 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  RAMRAS asked how  often Mr.  Swenson was  in touch                                                              
with Tom Irwin, Marty Rutherford, and Gene Therriault.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
5:57:27 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. SWENSON  answered that  he talks  with one  of them  once each                                                              
week.  He assured  the committee of their support  and provided an                                                              
example of DNR's support.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
5:59:04 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. SWENSON  displayed slide  15 that listed  the status  of three                                                              
permits.  Slide  16 showed the current state share  of the project                                                              
was $8.3  million for FY  10, and that  $6.5 million  is requested                                                              
for  FY 11.   Also,  there  will be  a  negotiated agreement  with                                                              
ENSTAR for  the use of its  data.  All  of the expenses are  to be                                                              
reimbursed upon  transfer to a  commercial entity.   Regarding the                                                              
project  timeline, the  target  is 2016,  providing  there are  no                                                              
legal  challenges   or  problems  with  facilities   and  ordering                                                              
equipment.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
6:00:54 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE PETERSEN  recalled that  the chance of  obtaining a                                                              
permit to  export gas  from Alaska  is "close to  nil."   He asked                                                              
how this would affect the volume of the gas pipeline.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
6:01:25 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  SWENSON  acknowledged  that   one  of  the  issues  with  the                                                              
pipeline is the  uncertainty about using the  current LNG facility                                                              
in order to  use its permit that  is "grandfathered in."   He said                                                              
he plans  to talk  with ConocoPhillips  Alaska,  Inc.  Building  a                                                              
new facility  either in Cook  Inlet or  Valdez will take  time; in                                                              
either case,  the question of exporting  natural gas to  a foreign                                                              
country must be addressed.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
6:02:46 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR  MILLETT asked  why  there are  two  state agencies,  the                                                              
Alaska  Natural Gas  Development  Authority (ANGDA),  and the  In-                                                              
State  Gas Pipeline  Project, working  toward the  same goal,  and                                                              
whether they are sharing information or duplicating work.                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
6:03:06 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. SWENSON  explained that  he is working  closely with  ANGDA to                                                              
be sure  there is no  duplication of effort.   ANGDA  is primarily                                                              
focused  on the  spur lines  and  the line  to Valdez  off of  the                                                              
large diameter  pipeline, with a  spur route from  Glennallen into                                                              
the  basin area.    This project  is  focused  on the  stand-alone                                                              
pipeline up the Parks Highway.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
6:04:22 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  JOHANSEN asked whether  the timeline  incorporates                                                              
the construction of industry that will consume the gas.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MR. SWENSON  pointed  out that on  slide 19  other facilities  are                                                              
listed under  "Project Review &  Sanction."  In  further response,                                                              
he said that was in 2011 and 2012.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
6:06:45 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE   JOHANSEN  assumed   that  was   the  time   other                                                              
companies will  look at  building gas  conditioning plants  or new                                                              
Alaskan industry and investment.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
6:07:16 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. SWENSON indicated yes.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
6:08:17 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
ETHAN SCHUTT, Vice  President, Land and Energy,  Cook Inlet Region                                                              
Inc. (CIRI), informed  the committee Fire Island  is located about                                                              
three  miles offshore  of  Anchorage.   The  wind  project on  the                                                              
island  consists of  36 1.5  megawatt GE  wind turbine  generators                                                              
with a  total nameplate  capacity  of 54 megawatts.   The  project                                                              
has   an  approximate   33  percent   capacity   factor  and   the                                                              
transmission   interconnect   is  a   34.5   kilovolt  (kV)   dual                                                              
transmission line  to Chugach Electric's station  on International                                                              
Road.   He continued  to explain  that the  project will  displace                                                              
1.5 billion  cubic feet  (Bcf) of  natural gas  per year  and will                                                              
meet the electrical  demand for thousands of households.   Slide 4                                                              
was a  map of  the project  layout showing  the locations  of wind                                                              
turbines, roads,  gathering lines, and  the subsea portion  of the                                                              
transmission line that  connects to the grid.   Mr. Schutt relayed                                                              
that the  project has been considered  by various entities  in the                                                              
past;  however,  CIRI believes  that  now  is  the time  to  build                                                              
because  the energy  solutions for  Southcentral are  the same  as                                                              
for the  nation: a  diversified  mix of energy  products using  as                                                              
much domestic,  renewable, and  non-fuel as  possible.   He opined                                                              
this project  is the best  chance to put  a significant  amount of                                                              
non-fuel, new,  electrical energy into  the grid.  He  agreed with                                                              
previous  testimony  that  Southcentral   and  the  Railbelt  face                                                              
imminent  shortages  of  power.     Coincidentally,  the  American                                                              
Recovery and Reinvestment  Act of 2009 provides  federal financial                                                              
incentives  to renewable  projects that are  developed by  private                                                              
taxpaying entities,  such as  CIRI.  In  fact, federal  funds will                                                              
pay an incentive  of about 30 percent of the capital  costs of the                                                              
Fire Island  Wind project,  and  CIRI is committed  to credit  100                                                              
percent of  the federal dollars  to the  cost of the  project thus                                                              
ultimately  benefitting  ratepayers.    He pointed  out  that  the                                                              
incentive  funding   also  requires   a  stringent   timeline  for                                                              
completion of the  project.  Project milestones  for 2009 include:                                                              
micrositing  studies  for  the  turbines,  clearing,  geotech  for                                                              
roads,  borings   at  each   turbine  location,  and   substantial                                                              
infrastructure.    Slide  10  was   the  critical  path  timeline:                                                              
11/2009, fieldwork  completed; 12/2009,  geotech results;  3/2010,                                                              
35        percent        design         completion;        5/2010,                                                              
integration/interconnection   agreement;  6/2010,   execute  power                                                              
purchase  agreements.    He  noted  that over  5  percent  of  the                                                              
federal funding  must be spent  in 2010  to qualify, so  CIRI will                                                              
be  constructing  roads  and  preparing   turbine  sites.    Tower                                                              
erection,  the installation  and  commission  of the  transmission                                                              
line,  and  commercial  operations  are  planned  for  the  fourth                                                              
quarter of 2011.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
6:14:08 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR MILLETT passed the gavel to Representative Johansen.                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
6:15:43 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE PETERSEN  asked whether  the towers are  similar to                                                              
those in Kodiak.                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE JOHANSEN returned the gavel to Co-Chair Millett.                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
6:16:07 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  SCHUTT  indicated   yes.    The  machines   are  very  large,                                                              
industrial  machines  installed  on  80  meter towers.    He  then                                                              
turned to  the underground  coal gasification  (UCG) project  that                                                              
is designed to produce  an alternative power source  by 2014.  The                                                              
project is  an underground  coal gasification  facility that  will                                                              
produce synthesis  gas (Syngas) sized  to fuel a new  100 megawatt                                                              
combined-cycle  power  plant.   Syngas  can  be used  to  generate                                                              
electricity and  is an ideal feedstock for  chemical manufacturing                                                              
processes such  as upgrading to  natural gas through  methanation,                                                              
and Fischer-Tropsch  synthetic liquid fuels.   Slide 14 was  a map                                                              
showing the  location of the project  area that is on  the west of                                                              
Cook  Inlet  and northwest  of  the  Beluga  Power Plant  and  gas                                                              
field.   The UCG project  area is roughly  24 square miles  and is                                                              
connected  to  existing   infrastructure  by  road,   but  is  not                                                              
connected to Anchorage  or the Mat-Su valley by road.   Mr. Schutt                                                              
indicated that transmission  interconnect is not much  of a hurdle                                                              
for  the  project because  of  the  power  plant  at Beluga.    He                                                              
presented  slides of  drill rig  work on  the project.   Slide  19                                                              
listed four reasons  CIRI is pursuing the project:   (1) committed                                                              
to a  diversified source  of energy;  (2) believes the  technology                                                              
is  on  the  verge of  commercialization  in  North  America;  (3)                                                              
believes the  technology provides  an environmentally  responsible                                                              
way to harness  coal energy; (4) believes the  technology provides                                                              
a  long-term  supply of  energy  from  a  domestic resource  at  a                                                              
reasonable price.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
6:19:12 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE RAMRAS  observed that  the state should  pursue in-                                                              
state gas with the same purposes.                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
6:20:34 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  SCHUTT  explained that  CIRI  believes  it  can make  a  fair                                                              
profit from  providing reasonably  priced  energy to the  domestic                                                              
market; in fact,  the profit motive is not to be  impugned.  Slide                                                              
20  displayed  the current  timeline  for  the  project.   At  the                                                              
present  time,  the  first  resource   assessment  hole  is  being                                                              
drilled,  and core  samples  are  being collected.    This is  the                                                              
first of  six holes  that will be  drilled in  the next  six weeks                                                              
for  data on  geology and  coal resource.   After  that, the  next                                                              
round  of   drilling  will  be   at  a  specific  site   for  site                                                              
characterization  and project  permit applications.   At the  same                                                              
time,  CIRI  will undertake  early-phase  commercial  negotiations                                                              
with  partners,  investors,  and  off-takers.    An  advantage  of                                                              
producing Syngas  is that it  has many market opportunities,  such                                                              
as feedstock  for Agrium,  Inc.; as  a matter  of fact  Agrium can                                                              
also  use  the CO2  that  is  produced  as  a by-product  of  coal                                                              
gasification.   Finally,  commercial  operations  for the  project                                                              
are scheduled for early 2014.                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
6:24:04 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR MILLETT  asked whether there  are other locations  in the                                                              
United States where this technology is being advanced.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
6:24:15 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. SCHUTT  responded that  two projects  have been announced  for                                                              
the Powder  River basin in Wyoming,  and there are  three projects                                                              
in Alberta, Canada.   At this point, these are  small research and                                                              
development  projects   built  with   public  money   and  grants.                                                              
However,  CIRI believes  the technology  is  ready for  commercial                                                              
development.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
6:25:33 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  SCHUTT  displayed  slide  21   that  listed  the  development                                                              
challenges  to  the project.    The  first  challenge is  that  of                                                              
carbon management,  assuming there will  be a carbon  incentive or                                                              
carbon tax.   CIRI is committed to carbon management,  even though                                                              
carbon  management   is  in  the   early  phases  of   policy  and                                                              
technological development.   The second  challenge is that  UCG is                                                              
in  an undefined  regulatory  regime,  although  CIRI  has a  good                                                              
working  relationship with  DNR  which is  the primary  permitting                                                              
agency.     Finally,   because   the  technology   has  not   been                                                              
commercially deployed,  financing structures will  involve venture                                                              
equity investors  comfortable with  risk, or  loans from  the U.S.                                                              
Department  of  Energy  (DOE).    Opportunities  for  the  project                                                              
include  access to  previously inaccessible  resources, and  power                                                              
plant  emissions  comparable  to  those  from  natural  gas.    In                                                              
addition, the  project has  the potential  to increase  by 300-400                                                              
percent  recoverable   coal  reserves  on  land   owned  by  CIRI.                                                              
Finally, the  technology utilizes  a modular-system  design easily                                                              
expanded to accommodate additional production volumes.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
6:29:18 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. SCHUTT displayed  slide 23 that showed CIRI  land interests of                                                              
joint  ownership, surface  interest,  and  subsurface interest  in                                                              
the Beluga  coal field area.   To the committee's question  of the                                                              
price of delivered  energy, he did not say what the  price of Fire                                                              
Island electricity  will  be because CIRI  is entering  commercial                                                              
negotiations  with the Railbelt  utilities.   He opined  the price                                                              
will be attractive  to the utilities  given that it will  be for a                                                              
fixed,  20-year term.    Mr. Schutt  said  he  expects to  produce                                                              
Syngas  at a  competitive price  with current  pricing on  natural                                                              
gas from Cook Inlet  on an energy equivalent basis.   He concluded                                                              
that  the project  is not  requesting any  financial support  from                                                              
the state at this point.                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
6:31:16 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  JOHANSEN  asked  about in-state  markets  for  UCG                                                              
products.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
6:32:01 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  SCHUTT  said  the  principal   objective  is  to  complete  a                                                              
commercial scale, first  phase of a UCG facility  and power plant.                                                              
Ideally, the product  will be produced with pricing  attractive to                                                              
Agrium.  Agrium  is a natural market and only requires  a pipeline                                                              
across  Cook  Inlet.    Another  product  possible  after  further                                                              
capital  investment  is  methane,   which  would  be  marketed  to                                                              
ENSTAR.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
6:34:31 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
PAUL  THOMSEN,  Director,  Policy &  Business  Development,  Ormat                                                              
Technologies, Inc.  (Ormat), informed  the committee Ormat  is the                                                              
largest developer of  geothermal energy in the U.S.,  and owns and                                                              
operates  520   megawatts  of  geothermal   generation  worldwide,                                                              
mostly  in the  U.S.   His firm  has also  supplied equipment  for                                                              
1,300  megawatts  of generation  in  24 countries  for  geothermal                                                              
development.    Ormat  is a  vertically  integrated  company  that                                                              
designs  and  manufactures  turbines,   owns  and  operates  power                                                              
plants  and negotiates  power  purchase agreements,  and  provides                                                              
drilling and  resource assessment  in-house.  Currently,  his firm                                                              
is  developing six  projects in  the  U.S., and  employs over  one                                                              
thousand  people.  He  displayed slide  5 that  was a map  showing                                                              
Ormat's  geothermal  locations  in  71  countries.    Mr.  Thomsen                                                              
pointed  out that  Ormat  began  in Alaska  in  1975 by  supplying                                                              
remote power  units to  the Trans-Alaska  Pipeline System  (TAPS).                                                              
He  explained   that  Ormat  has   developed  projects   from  250                                                              
kilowatts to  up to 160 megawatts  located on remote site  such as                                                              
volcanic  areas  and Arctic  environments.   Slide  7  illustrated                                                              
Ormat's business  in Alaska from  100 remote power units  in 1975,                                                              
and the  first geothermal  unit  tested at Manley  Hot Springs  in                                                              
1979.  Slide  9 was a diagram  of an air-cooled  binary geothermal                                                              
power  plant.  Mr.  Thomsen explained  that hot  water brought  up                                                              
from  the  ground  heats  a secondary  working  fluid  in  a  heat                                                              
exchanger,  and the  brine is  reinjected  into the  ground.   The                                                              
closed system does  not allow evaporation, so there  is no release                                                              
into  the atmosphere.   The  working fluid,  which is  isopentane,                                                              
vaporizes,  thus building  up pressure to  spin a  turbo-expanding                                                              
turbine, and  produce electricity.   The  working fluid  is cooled                                                              
by air and  recycled through to provide continuous  power "whether                                                              
the sun is  shining or the wind  is blowing."  The  key attributes                                                              
of geothermal  technology are  a base-load  capacity factor  of 95                                                              
percent, and  competitive costs  with a long-term  fixed contract.                                                              
Ormat  has proven  the  technology  by 10,000  megawatts  deployed                                                              
worldwide.    Further,  this  project  insulates  ratepayers  from                                                              
volatile  fossil  fuel  prices;   in  fact,  there  should  be  no                                                              
variation in  the price of  heat coming  from the reservoir.   The                                                              
closed loop system  produces near zero emissions, and  there is no                                                              
water consumption  at an air-cooled facility.   In addition, there                                                              
is minimal  surface and  visual impact as  a typical  plant covers                                                              
about  five  acres, and  the  well  area  can be  reclaimed  after                                                              
drilling  and  capping.    During   construction,  many  jobs  are                                                              
available;  however, operating jobs  are limited  to a  few highly                                                              
paid  positions at  the  site.   Mr.  Thomson  displayed slide  12                                                              
which  was a  map showing  Mount  Spurr, the  Beluga Power  Plant,                                                              
Tyonek,  Anchorage, and  the land  area leased  to Ormat from  the                                                              
state.   The site of  the power facility  would be on  the eastern                                                              
section of the leased area with wells sited throughout.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
6:41:42 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR.  THOMSEN  displayed  slide 13  that  illustrated  the  project                                                              
timeline, and  noted that  Ormat purchased  the leases  in 10/2008                                                              
for $3  million.   Non-intrusive exploration  work began  in 2009,                                                              
and the  drilling of  slim holes and  production wells  will begin                                                              
in the  summer of 2010,  with full  exploration drilling  in 2011.                                                              
The goal  is to  have the project  generating power  by 2016.   He                                                              
estimated  the total cost  of a  50 megawatt  project to  be $250-                                                              
$300  million.   The  funding requested  to  date  was a  matching                                                              
grant from  the renewable  energy grant program  in the  amount of                                                              
$1.9 million,  which Ormat considers  to be a commitment  from AEA                                                              
to  be a  partner in  the project.    The project  will also  need                                                              
about 40  miles of transmission  to reach the Beluga  Power Plant.                                                              
Mr.  Thomsen  assumed the  transmission  infrastructure  would  be                                                              
built by  a utility, or  the state, given  the proximity  of other                                                              
projects.   The cost  of power to  the utility  is expected  to be                                                              
eleven cents  to fourteen cents  per kWh depending on  the royalty                                                              
rate on the leases  and whether there are state  incentives.  With                                                              
no incentives  and royalty  rate of 10  percent on gross  sales, a                                                              
power purchase agreement  rate of about fourteen cents  per kWh is                                                              
needed to  make the project  "pencil."   It is estimated  that the                                                              
reservoir will produce  between 50 megawatts and  100 megawatts of                                                              
power which is equal to about 416 gigawatt hours per year.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
6:46:03 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. THOMSEN turned  to the subject of the project's  likelihood of                                                              
completion.   Looking  at the  technology,  he said  there was  no                                                              
technology  risk  because  Ormat   has  a  track  record  for  the                                                              
construction of  geothermal power  plants.  Considering  business,                                                              
he acknowledged  the project  needs to reduce  the price  in order                                                              
to  execute a  power purchase  agreement;  however, the  utilities                                                              
are  interested.    Ormat considers  the  likelihood  of  adequate                                                              
resource to  be moderate,  due to insufficient  data.   There have                                                              
been no  roadblocks or major  challenges to permitting  identified                                                              
so  far.   He concluded  that through  contact  with the  Railbelt                                                              
utilities  and local  participants,  Ormat  has received  a  great                                                              
deal of support  for developing the project in order  to supply an                                                              
alternative base-load energy resource to the Railbelt.                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
6:48:11 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE RAMRAS asked for the temperature at Mount Spurr.                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
6:48:36 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. THOMSEN replied  that the best temperature  for the technology                                                              
is in  the range  of 300-500  degrees Fahrenheit.   Because  Mount                                                              
Spurr is  a volcanic  resource, Ormat  expects to find  sufficient                                                              
heat  as  the  binary  technology  allows for  the  use  of  lower                                                              
temperatures.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
6:49:45 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  RAMRAS described  the situation  in the  community                                                              
of Naknek.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
6:50:10 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. THOMSEN  observed that Ormat  is always interested  in selling                                                              
its technology  to third parties.   He opined that Ormat  would be                                                              
interested in bidding  for a project in Naknek  when the community                                                              
is ready.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
6:50:38 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE RAMRAS  encouraged Mr.  Thomsen to schedule  a site                                                              
visit.                                                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
6:51:55 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. THOMSEN  said he and  the senior geologist  would be  happy to                                                              
visit the site at Naknek.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
6:52:31 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  JOHANSEN asked  whether Mr.  Thomsen was  familiar                                                              
with Bell Island.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
6:53:02 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
MR. THOMSEN said no.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  JOHANSEN  observed that  Bell  Island is  directly                                                              
connected to an  intertie system with the potential  to connect to                                                              
a community  with  85 percent  unemployment.   He also  encouraged                                                              
site visits by Ormat.                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MR. THOMSEN said  Ormat was very interested in  building the first                                                              
geothermal project  on tribal or  Native land.  Ormat's  corporate                                                              
structure is  that 25 percent of  its revenue comes from  the sale                                                              
of equipment,  and 75 percent from  the sale of  electricity, thus                                                              
it is very interested in facility development.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
6:54:21 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR MILLETT  announced the co-chairs will produce  a side-by-                                                              
side comparison of the projects for the committee.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
6:55:18 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  PETERSEN observed  that a  lot of information  was                                                              
received to help the committee make decisions.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
6:55:28 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  JOHANSEN noted  that Mount  Spurr and  Chakachamna                                                              
Hydro are  two projects in  the same area.   He expressed  concern                                                              
that CIRI  and the  in-state gas  pipeline are  pursuing the  same                                                              
limited market.                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
6:56:48 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  RAMRAS  stated that  he  wants a  commitment  from                                                              
Black & Veatch.                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
6:57:03 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR EDGMON  relayed that Bush  Alaska would be  interested in                                                              
paying fourteen  cents per  kWh for electricity.   He  pointed out                                                              
the  legislature   is  debating  energy  policy   legislation  and                                                              
hopefully   funding  streams   as  each   project  requires   some                                                              
participation by the  state, and in addition to  the gas pipeline,                                                              
projects  in outlying  areas are  also very  important.   Co-Chair                                                              
Edgmon  would   like  to  continue   the  conversation   with  the                                                              
presenters at the Rural Alaska Energy Conference in April.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
6:58:28 PM                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIR  MILLETT announced  upcoming hearings  and expressed  her                                                              
appreciation  for  the  presentations and  the  opportunities  for                                                              
energy  in  Alaska.    She noted  that  her  constituents  in  the                                                              
Railbelt need to  hear when there will be additional  power coming                                                              
into the grid.                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
ADJOURNMENT                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
There being  no further business  before the committee,  the House                                                              
Special Committee on Energy meeting was adjourned at 6:58 p.m.                                                                  

Document Name Date/Time Subjects
House Energy - RIRP[2]-031110 final.pdf HENE 3/11/2010 3:00:00 PM
House Energy - Susitna rev6BC031110-brian.pdf HENE 3/11/2010 3:00:00 PM
CIRI Energy briefing_AK Leg Com_3.11.10.pdf HENE 3/11/2010 3:00:00 PM
House Energy 3_11_Swenson.pdf HENE 3/11/2010 3:00:00 PM
TDX House Energy March 2010.pdf HENE 3/11/2010 3:00:00 PM
Mount Spurr_House Special Committee on Energy 20-Feb-2010 (2).pdf HENE 3/11/2010 3:00:00 PM
Seven Questions.pdf HENE 3/11/2010 3:00:00 PM